Curse

Knight of Eternal Darknes · Aug 21, 2005, 06:32 AM // 06:32

this is a very good post man
the idea is really good and with the skills it seems like a good idea too
you got everything pretty much you just need like 100+ more useless skills like the other classes

Sturmkoenig · Aug 21, 2005, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Eye Slash: 10E, 1/2s cast, 5s recharge.
If this attack hits, target is Blinded for 10..30s.

*roflmao* what is this? an elite-elite? 2 Strategists taking out an all-ranger team in like 20sec?
awsome skills, i must say good ideas, but (i must not test this to say so) every single one can be abused to the death! (with this values)

i also must not add, that invi is a no-no, as this was done like 35 times befor me

however, i love the skill ideas like:

Quote:

Guarding Parry: 15 E, 3/4 Cast, 30s recharge.
For 3..20secs, if your target is "attacking" an ally adjacent to you, you have a 75% chance to "block" the attacks. Does not work on spells

just, that you should make this a single riposte-style skill instead of a stance, as any stance like that can (as mentioned) be abused to the death and make any fighter completely useless.

also i must say: how can a team without any primary strategist survive only 1 skill of an enemy strategist?
there is no class in guildwars that is a realy must-have-primary (only monk comes very close regarding tombs with like 96%) but strategist would be such a class and that's the great problem.

medikamen · Aug 21, 2005, 06:37 PM // 18:37

seems to me this character is a weapon of mass destruction

i doubt it would fit in the guild wars universe. The developers pretty much covered all the possible classes in the game, i wonder how they will pull out new ones for the expansion

Druids Arrow · Aug 21, 2005, 08:35 PM // 20:35

A good suggestion, original and I like it!

Plague · Aug 21, 2005, 10:00 PM // 22:00

I imagine if the only classes were Warrior, Monk and Elementalist, people would just throw an absolute fit over these "Mesmer" things. Some people will just never be pleased until the entire game structure has been changed to accomodate a single new class.

Zubrowka · Aug 22, 2005, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

I definitely dont intend the use of invisibility to sneak past PVE monsters. "Ambush" forces the invisible players to be immobile.

I'm regretting "Covert Mission" more and more. It's designed to allow you to sneak a subgroup out to do something sneaky, but given its potential to help runners and the like.... I've washed my hands of it. Pretend it's not there.

Stealth is an important strategic and tactical element. Without it the class doesn't really bring anything significantly new to the table. I think it can be salvage by not making it so blindingly overpowered. Instead of making you completely invisible, the spells should make you disappear from enemy radars. Depending on the spell used, you character (and possibly nearby allies) would remain in "quiet mode" until you are too close, cast a spell, attack, or do a shout. You will also be "spotted" by an emeny anytime you're within 30m and he has an line-of-sight to you.

That would truly add a strategic dimension to the game. Ambushes would only succeed if you make good use of the landscape, requiring both knowledge of the map and planning in advance. In turn, to avoid ambushes, teams would need to have better situation awareness.

Along the same line the strategist could have a decoy ability. Decoys would show up in the radar as players. But when the opposing team get within visual range, they would see that they're just little dolls.

Rieselle · Aug 22, 2005, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Wow, that's a very interesting idea. I mostly overlooked the UI as "untouchable", but if it becomes open to a class's abilities, then some creative possibilities open up. There'd have to be some careful changes on both server and client to prevent hacks (eg. Only send the information the client can see, rather than sending more and telling the client to "hide" it.)

We'd then have the opportunity for "information warefare"... hiding/altering: dots on the minimap, allies' names/classes, allies' health bars, etc.

Also I was thinking of informative skills - the strategist having skills that allows him to see his target's current Energy level, or spy on part of his skill bar, etc.
Or skills that allow allies' to see each other's energy bars, or see in more detail what conditions/hexes they are suffering.

In gvg, it means a Wa/Strat or Ra/Strat with running skills can be a powerful scout, he can discover things about the enemies' build and let his teammates choose their formation and location. Or allow an allied primary strategist to prepare to use an appropriate Battle Plan.

Hmmm, this might be too much power in the hands of one class tho. Perhaps a Strategist has very few skills (except for Duelist skills) that affect his own combat ability? All of his skills are either informative but functionally useless, or they affect the team only. (and often with tradeoffs, forcing them to behave in a certain manner to get the benefit of the skill).

That's probably my vision for the class. As a primary, its a supporting class, with some melee-based defense and support attacks. As a secondary, its a way of making a melee-oriented caster character with skills that make up for lower armour, and take advantage of higher energy. And require less spamming/attacking so they have more time to use spells and stuff.

banishd · Aug 22, 2005, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Invisibility + GvG = Gank Fest

other then taht

OverPowered:

Quote:

Assault at Range: 20E, 1s cast, 90s recast.
For 5..20s, affected allies have 10..50% increased range on their ranged attacks. Their ranged attacks also cause enemies to be Crippled for 10s. The effect ends if an affected ally moves.

hm so basically i can sit there have 50% increased range on a longbow and cripple people for 10s. gg.

Quote:

Spell Storm: 20E, 5s casting, 90s recast. Causes exhaustion.
Within 10s, the next offensive spell cast by target other ally will also be cast on 1..5 extra randomly chosen enemies within area of influence.

oh yes i can tottally see chain lightning being casted on 5 other people.

Quote:

Preparing The Battlefield: 20E, 3s cast, 90s recast
All "traps" and "wards" performed by affected allies become instant cast, last twice as long, and recharge instantly. This effect lasts for 1..4 traps/wards, for each affected ally, before wearing off.

theres a reason traps are easily intereupted.
with this skill youd see people running up to a group of people and "spiking" spike trap and other traps for insane amounts of damage.

Quote:

Covert Mission: 10E, 1s cast, 90s recast.
Target ally and 0..2 allies adjacent to target become invisible and unable to be seen, listed with holding ctrl, or targeted for 5..15s. They move with 10% speed penalty. Effect ends for all if any affected ally becomes adjacent to an enemy, performs any action, or takes damage (eg, from AOE skills).

GvG = Gankfest. oh boy i can see it now, 3 invisible guys walking towards my base.

Quote:

Guarding Parry: 15 E, 3/4 Cast, 30s recharge.
For 3..20secs, if your target is "attacking" an ally adjacent to you, you have a 75% chance to "block" the attacks. Does not work on spells.

so i put this on a warrior, stand next to whoever the warrior targets?
...
[/quote]

Quote:

Weakpoint Thrust: 15E, 3/4s Cast, 5s recharge.
If target is moving, or performing an action (attack, spell, etc) against someone other than yourself, you will perform a single normal melee attack with 50% armour penetration, and knock them down.

oh boy 50% armor penetration + knockdown just from performing an action! (over powred 2 the max)

Quote:

Eye Slash: 10E, 1/2s cast, 5s recharge.
If this attack hits, target is Blinded for 10..30s.

gg.

Quote:

Take Cover: 10E, 30s recharge
For 10s, allies standing next to a landscape feature (rock, pillar, cliff, etc.) have a 30..60% chance to "Evade" any kind of ranged damage, from arrows and spells.

Sounds fun. we should have the whole team stand up next to the wall, have 3 people spamming this to keep it up 24/7.
and use that other skill that makes warriors useless. Guarding Party or whatever.

Quote:

Harassment: 10E, 30s recast
For 5..15s, all non-spell attacks by affected allies will interrupt actions. Effect ends prematurely if any affected ally has an action interrupted.

wow.
that sounds like fun.
2 people spamming that 24/7, have 2 interupters and oh boy let the fun begin.

Quote:

"Hold!" : 5E, 2s recharge
For 3..8s, all allies do 20% extra damage and gain a 5% increase in running speed. This skill will stack with itself up to 3 times. However, the benefit does not apply until the skill "Now!" is performed. The build-up effect is canceled if any ally moves or performs any kind of attack or offensive spell.

"Now!": 5E, 10s recharge.
Activates the bonuses provided by "Hold!".

Seriously, whats the point?

Quote:

"One on One!": 20E, 5s cast, 90s recast. 1 pip to maintain
While maintaining this enhancement, all affected allies do 10..50% more damage to their target, if no other allies are targeting that enemy. An affected enemy will do half damage with attacks and spells to an affected ally, if that ally is not targeting that specific enemy. This effect shows up on the condition bars of affected enemies too.

no comment nessecary.

i didnt bother commenting the rest of the skills because some of them were just plain horrible. i mean

Quote:

Strategic Withdrawal: 10E, 45s recharge.
For 30..60s, all allies have a 75% chance to "evade" attacks from enemies in front of them, when they are walking backwards.

seriously.

Instead of just trying to think up "cool" skills, realize how 1 class will upset the current balance issues.
Anet will never implement new classes.
why?
because it will mess up the balance between all the skills, and every skill would have to be redone.
that being said, that was a great read.
too bad it will never happen.
and thats just the way i like it.

Zubrowka · Aug 22, 2005, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

Also I was thinking of informative skills - the strategist having skills that allows him to see his target's current Energy level, or spy on part of his skill bar, etc.
Or skills that allow allies' to see each other's energy bars, or see in more detail what conditions/hexes they are suffering.

I don't know about the revealing someone's skill bar. That information should be read on the battlefield, I think. Most people probably don't want to reveal their build that easily either. One thing I enjoy doing is to go into random PVP arenas as a smiting monk and smite all the would-be monk-slayers to death.

The fact that you can't target a foe when he is in stealth mode already hides his class. An ability that let you disguise yourself as a different class would be pretty neat in PvP though. People would be wondering why a monk/mesmer is slashing away with a sword and shouting "For great justice!".

Rieselle · Aug 22, 2005, 10:01 PM // 22:01

Hmmm, possibly, then show the skills being used by every member of the enemy party? In other words, in addition to the skill icon popping up in the hud, it appears above the all enemies' heads?

Although now I'm probably getting a bit silly

The milk shake · Aug 24, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

i would say its retartedly way too powerful, WAY too powerful for example ur eye slash 30 secs blind is crazy, considering its low cooldown, u can blind every enemy indefinitely, and meteor shower/spell storm would be lethal instantly because its basically 5 meteor showers in one.... and preparing the battlefield just means that rangers can swarm enemies with traps nonstop and they cant be stopped, and the nonstop crippling ranged attacks, all those spells are stronger than elites!

Rieselle · Aug 24, 2005, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Ok, I'm fond of exaggerating for effect. But do you disagree with the general theme of the class?

What would you suggest as useful but balanced skills/battle plans that are creative and fun? Or perhaps you could suggest modifications to the skills I've listed that would make them balanced?

Sturmkoenig · Aug 24, 2005, 12:47 PM // 12:47

i quote myself:

Quote:

there is no class in guildwars that is a realy must-have-primary (only monk comes very close regarding tombs with like 96%) but strategist would be such a class and that's the great problem.

a class giving a special advantage to a profession would only set up more builds with 1 strategist and 7 ppl of one other primary profession.
e.g. 1strat, 7ele/Mo; 1 strat, 7 W/x;...

to disable this, you have to weaken the effect or limit the area of effect where it takes place... lets say it can effect a maximum of 2 ppl or sth.
however, then you can still not allow any boosts for secundary strategists, or it would cause a wave of all-secundary-strategists... buffing each other all the time with incredible effect.

ok, now lets say only the primary attribute enables team-buffing and a primary strategist is very weak himself (low armor & energy [regen]) so that there cannot be any all strategist-builds.
THEN i figure out a problem what to do with the 3 secundary attributes... what to do with all of them? except duelism...

you see the problem? and btw, there was nearly none

Quote:

exaggerating for effect

in this topic of us.
we just wanna make clear, how ppl would start abusing it to win HoH, as they are abusing everything else, they find.

asd334 · Aug 24, 2005, 04:37 PM // 16:37

it sounds ok but the names of the skills need work and they can't be unbalanced but overall im glad you thought of this good idea but put a little more thought into making the skills fair and stuff.

pappayaponta · Aug 24, 2005, 05:08 PM // 17:08

i Really like the suggestion its GOOD!

aeronox · Aug 25, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

A new class should add an extra dimension to gameplay, and this suggestion definitely does; the very *position* of your allies is important, and you position relative to them. This is the most unique aspect of the class - it's similar to Heal Area, Healing Seed, the Wells - but different, and with direct affect.
Having not played elementalist to a high level, I wonder if this overlaps with some Wards? Shouts? Not in the implementation sense, but in the concept...

Also, in addition to the suggestion, there should be some Strat vs Strat action, similar to Mes vs Mes, in that they can choose to either support their team, or overwhelm the enemy Strat. This could help balance it up and provide a range of opportunities to specialise in.

And since it has gone uncommented, I agree with your vision for armor - like a Commanding Officer, not a fighter - more ceremonial than a warrior, less fancy than a mesmer/ele. And I would love to see Rapiers introduced as melee piercing damage.

I can imagine an overflow of secondary strats to begin with... even more than usual with new classes... but as they learn the way it works, Strats will find equilibrium.

I don't think the class name suits the naming feel of the game... perhaps rethink it. Especially since every good player has the right to be called strategist as it is.

I live in Melbourne, too!

Volten · Aug 31, 2005, 04:29 PM // 16:29

This is a good idea , however see a stragegist more of a ranger than a fighter , so the duellist skill would be less useful , what i mean is a strategist must see and be able to evaluate everything on the battlefield...

I also thought Prepare the battlefield could be Casting time 30 second : Any trap amd wards set within the influence circle and in the time prepare the battlefield is set , they last twice as long recharge instantly and are cast of 1 (maybe more) more level then usual

magicplayer.exe · Sep 01, 2005, 09:44 PM // 21:44

needs a way to find traps, that will be nice

aeronox · Nov 04, 2005, 07:11 AM // 07:11

This was suggested a long time ago.. I found it really interesting, so I'm bumping it; hopefully there are those who like this idea but didn't want to dig through 20 pages of threads to find it

For those who might flame, keep in mind that the skills suggested here and their strengths have been exaggerated incredibly - invisibility idea has been flamed, fairly, so ignore that! - it is the general idea that is interesting: that the relative positions of your allies determines your effectiveness, which encourages teamwork.

A Strategist would have a nightmare in Comp Arena, for example, because so many there simply want to fight their own way, and the only rule which SOMETIMES gets through to players is "Get the monk!" ... to fully utilise a Strategist, the team must be well organised. If a good team with a good Strategist seems overpowered, good on them!

Someone above asked the usefulness of the "Hold!" and "Now!" skills. After thinking about it for a little while, I could see...
You can stack Hold! up to three times, and during this time your allies must remain still. For every time you cast it, it improves the effect... however! This effect, and its duration, is only triggered upon the Now! skill being activated. So, scenario:
Team. Strategist says stop moving. Uses "Hold!" Waits for recharge. The enemy approaches. Strategist uses "Hold!" The enemy starts to attack. For the last time, Strategist uses "Hold!" just as you begin to take damage... and then "Now!" and from that point, you have the benefits of it all. It's a very tactical skill which highlights the discipline necessary in a Strategist-using team.

Perhaps the primary attribute line of the class could be the ~number~ of people near you that are affected by your plans, as opposed to the ~area~ that the skills affect. With a minimum of, say, 2, even secondary Strategists can benefit by standing next to another player. A E/St could stand next to the Monk and help keep her alive.

A Duelist attribute suits secondary Strategists - primary casters - and to combine with a Warrior primary probably wouldn't make sense. But then, there are other such attributes - using Inspiration with a primary Elementalist, for example.

An alternative spin, which could meld two ideas together, is changing "Battle Plans" to "Songs" and use a ~Bard~ theme. The two overlap slightly in that having one in a team would be enough, although...

Say you're unlucky enough to have two Strategists in your team, with similar skills... (this would be like having two Illusion Mesmers or Minion Necros) ... with the limited area of effect, one could guard the casters while the other supports the warriors... And ... I can now see this becoming overpowered.

The Phalanx skill is nice, and could be made to have negative effects.

Essentially this is the Buff-master. With some bite. And style.

Still, give it some thought, contribute, because I think this one is unique and, thank god, not another Ninja/Fighting Monk class.

Symeon · Nov 04, 2005, 07:41 AM // 07:41

I'm glad this post brought a lot more interest than a similar idea for a new melee class that I posted a while ago. I won't repost it since I reposted it on another thread, but I'll sum it up quickly

Attribs

Balance Arts - Increasing dmg using the weapon (thought of pole or double sticks, never knew the proper name for these) of the class and skills are based on ideas of balancing defense and offense.
Hypnotic Arts - This attribute enables you to use skills that mind-read and confuse the enemy, decreasing their effect.
Vocal Arts - This attribute enables you to use shouts/stances that positively effect your allies and negatively effect the enemy.
Trickery(primary attrib) - This increases the chance that the enemy will be 'confused' by you actions(they might see you do things you're not actually doing, or loose sight of you)

Armor: Main idea was crusader-style chainmail with cloth covering

Weapon: Pole or double sticks or double mallets or something else

I know this is not the same as your idea (e.g. hypnotic arts) but I can see some things that link in:

-balance arts, with the effects on offense and defense
-Vocal arts, shouting to do various things.
-trickery, linking to some skills you put in such as 'covert mission'.

Obviously many people would like to see a kind of new melee profession but that can be linked better with secondary casting.